[BCAB] first inaccessible chip/pin machines now out there.

GrahamPage gpage at useit.plus.com
Thu Aug 11 17:13:19 BST 2016


There have been trials done on accessible cash machines using headphones and
then there are some guides at the lower edge of the screen to help you
navigate.  A similar kind of setup could be used on touch sensitive machines
but having to always carry headphones with you is really less than ideal.

If we are really going to leave Europe, we do need to think about the
accessibility of various kinds of equipment.  Access to radio and TV comes
up again and again on this list and we wont solve any of these issues
properly until there is some kind of right  to accessibility enshrined  in
law.  We have enough evidence now to show that putting the business case
forward is simply not enough.

We do need RNIB to also be honest about what accessibility means.  The new
natwest accessible credit cards for example may help users with vision to
read and that's really good but for those with no sight, the accessible
cards are no more accessible than any other since you can easily tell which
way round  the cards should be.  In the same way, Wireless for the blind
makes a lot of noise about how accessible their products are but apart from
the Sonata, the other products are not particularly accessible if you have
no vision at all.  The softly softly approach has been tried but it's failed
and accessibility for totally blind people is still often possible at a push
but things are getting worse rather than better for almost everything with
the exception of smart phones or tablets where app developers can get at the
operating system.

We also need to band together and work with others.  Touch controlled
devices are inaccessible or at least hard to use for many people and we need
sensible alternatives or at least modifications to make these environments
accessible.

Regards

Graham

-----Original Message-----
From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Yusuf Osman
Sent: 11 August 2016 16:45
To: BCAB Discussion List
Subject: Re: [BCAB] first inaccessible chip/pin machines now out there.

The problem to me sounds like these machines don't have a keypad that can be
detected through touch. That's a pretty significant accessibility issue
because of the limit placed on contactless payments. Anything over £30.00
and you still need to input your PIN and if you don't have any kind of
feedback as to where the buttons are, you can't do that securely. Very
worrying.
Yusuf

-----Original Message-----
From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Richard
Godfrey-McKay
Sent: 11 August 2016 16:31
To: 'BCAB Discussion List' <bcab at lists.bcab.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [BCAB] first inaccessible chip/pin machines now out there.

Paul, I agree.  

I think it's important to ascertain exactly what the inaccessibility issue
is.  

The arrival of contactless cards and payment devices means that it's
possible to authorise a payment of under £30 by holding a contactless card
over the screen of some payment devices.  

I don't find that these machines are any more inaccessible than those which
they replaced, to the extent that they don't speak, so you take on trust
that you're authorising the amount which the vendor has entered on the
device.  

It would be interesting to hear from Terry or others exactly what the
problem is with the new devices.

If there is an accessibility problem which precludes or restricts our access
to use payment card machines, then it seems to me that this is an equalities
issue which should be pretty easy to sort out.
 
Richard
Richard Godfrey-McKay
Telephone: 01738-445 880
Mobile: 07791 452 593

-----Original Message-----
From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Paul leake
Sent: 11 August 2016 12:29
To: BCAB Discussion List
Subject: Re: [BCAB] first inaccessible chip/pin machines now out there.

Richard,

Doesn't this need to be dealt with at a national level by RNIB and their
legal team? I think it's that important!

Kind regards,

Paul
paul.leake at ntlworld.com

Twitter: @paulleake1


 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Godfrey-McKay" 
<lists.godfrey-mckay at virginmedia.com
To: "'BCAB Discussion List'" <bcab at lists.bcab.org.uk Date sent: Thu, 11 Aug
2016 12:06:32 +0100
Subject: Re: [BCAB] first inaccessible chip/pin machines now out there.

Terry, if you don't take active steps to deal with this kind of
discrimination, then the problem will probably grow.  I know it's probably
easy for a retired lawyer to take that stance, but I wonder what Trading
Standards would have to say about it?

Richard
Richard Godfrey-McKay
Telephone: 01738-445 880
Mobile: 07791 452 593

-----Original Message-----
From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Terry
Robinson
Sent: 11 August 2016 11:15
To: BCAB Discussion List
Subject: Re: [BCAB] first inaccessible chip/pin machines now out there.

Hi all,

Our local hardware shop acquired one of these some time ago.  I told them I
could no longer do business with them and now look for whatever I want on
CPC and Amazon.

They did say they'd sort it out, but I remain to be convinced.

Cheers,

Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Smalley
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 10:54 AM
To: 'goshawk on horseback' ; 'BCAB Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [BCAB] first inaccessible chip/pin machines now out there.

Hi,

Yes, I too came across one of these devices during a flight in October 2015.

Extremely annoying.

Best wishes
    Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of goshawk on
horseback
Sent: 11 August 2016 10:29
To: access-uk at freelists.org; BCAB Discussion List; nfbuk at yahoogroups.com;
vi-genaccess at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BCAB] first inaccessible chip/pin machines now out there.

hello all,
well, last night when I was out, came across an inaccessible chip & pin
machine, really not good news!
it was a touch screen version, had no buttons, and no speech, so completely
unusable for a blind person.
as someone who virtually all of the time relies on being able to pay by card
whilst out places, I really hope these are not going to start being the
norm.

Simon

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