[BCAB] first inaccessible chip/pin machines now out there.

Derek Hornby derek.hornby_uk at btopenworld.com
Fri Aug 12 18:39:44 BST 2016


Yes, one can still have chip and signature.
Derek 



 

-----Original Message-----
From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Tiddy
Ogg
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 7:38 AM
To: BCAB Discussion List
Subject: Re: [BCAB] first inaccessible chip/pin machines now out
there.


When these chip and pin machines first came out, there was an outcry 
from some blind people that they wouldn't be able to use them, so the 
law or the banks accepted that chip and signature authorisation was 
allowed for blind customers.
Does this still apply?




On 12/08/2016 05:47, Colin Phelan wrote:
> Graham, I would still applaud Nat West as the cut out in the card at
least makes it easy to identify your card in your wallet.
> Regards
> Colin
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of
GrahamPage
> Sent: 11 August 2016 17:13
> To: 'BCAB Discussion List' <bcab at lists.bcab.org.uk>
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] first inaccessible chip/pin machines now out
there.
>
> There have been trials done on accessible cash machines using
headphones and then there are some guides at the lower edge of the
screen to help you navigate.  A similar kind of setup could be used on
touch sensitive machines but having to always carry headphones with
you is really less than ideal.
>
> If we are really going to leave Europe, we do need to think about
the accessibility of various kinds of equipment.  Access to radio and
TV comes up again and again on this list and we wont solve any of
these issues properly until there is some kind of right  to
accessibility enshrined  in law.  We have enough evidence now to show
that putting the business case forward is simply not enough.
>
> We do need RNIB to also be honest about what accessibility means.
The new natwest accessible credit cards for example may help users
with vision to read and that's really good but for those with no
sight, the accessible cards are no more accessible than any other
since you can easily tell which way round  the cards should be.  In
the same way, Wireless for the blind makes a lot of noise about how
accessible their products are but apart from the Sonata, the other
products are not particularly accessible if you have no vision at all.
The softly softly approach has been tried but it's failed and
accessibility for totally blind people is still often possible at a
push but things are getting worse rather than better for almost
everything with the exception of smart phones or tablets where app
developers can get at the operating system.
>
> We also need to band together and work with others.  Touch
controlled devices are inaccessible or at least hard to use for many
people and we need sensible alternatives or at least modifications to
make these environments accessible.
>
> Regards
>
> Graham
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of
Yusuf Osman
> Sent: 11 August 2016 16:45
> To: BCAB Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] first inaccessible chip/pin machines now out
there.
>
> The problem to me sounds like these machines don't have a keypad
that can be detected through touch. That's a pretty significant
accessibility issue because of the limit placed on contactless
payments. Anything over £30.00 and you still need to input your PIN
and if you don't have any kind of feedback as to where the buttons
are, you can't do that securely. Very worrying.
> Yusuf
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of
Richard Godfrey-McKay
> Sent: 11 August 2016 16:31
> To: 'BCAB Discussion List' <bcab at lists.bcab.org.uk>
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] first inaccessible chip/pin machines now out
there.
>
> Paul, I agree.
>
> I think it's important to ascertain exactly what the inaccessibility
issue is.
>
> The arrival of contactless cards and payment devices means that it's
possible to authorise a payment of under £30 by holding a contactless
card over the screen of some payment devices.
>
> I don't find that these machines are any more inaccessible than
those which they replaced, to the extent that they don't speak, so you
take on trust that you're authorising the amount which the vendor has
entered on the device.
>
> It would be interesting to hear from Terry or others exactly what
the problem is with the new devices.
>
> If there is an accessibility problem which precludes or restricts
our access to use payment card machines, then it seems to me that this
is an equalities issue which should be pretty easy to sort out.
>   
> Richard
> Richard Godfrey-McKay
> Telephone: 01738-445 880
> Mobile: 07791 452 593
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Paul
leake
> Sent: 11 August 2016 12:29
> To: BCAB Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] first inaccessible chip/pin machines now out
there.
>
> Richard,
>
> Doesn't this need to be dealt with at a national level by RNIB and
their legal team? I think it's that important!
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Paul
> paul.leake at ntlworld.com
>
> Twitter: @paulleake1
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Godfrey-McKay"
> <lists.godfrey-mckay at virginmedia.com
> To: "'BCAB Discussion List'" <bcab at lists.bcab.org.uk Date sent: Thu,
11 Aug
> 2016 12:06:32 +0100
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] first inaccessible chip/pin machines now out
there.
>
> Terry, if you don't take active steps to deal with this kind of
discrimination, then the problem will probably grow.  I know it's
probably easy for a retired lawyer to take that stance, but I wonder
what Trading Standards would have to say about it?
>
> Richard
> Richard Godfrey-McKay
> Telephone: 01738-445 880
> Mobile: 07791 452 593
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of
Terry Robinson
> Sent: 11 August 2016 11:15
> To: BCAB Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] first inaccessible chip/pin machines now out
there.
>
> Hi all,
>
> Our local hardware shop acquired one of these some time ago.  I told
them I could no longer do business with them and now look for whatever
I want on CPC and Amazon.
>
> They did say they'd sort it out, but I remain to be convinced.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Terry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Smalley
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 10:54 AM
> To: 'goshawk on horseback' ; 'BCAB Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] first inaccessible chip/pin machines now out
there.
>
> Hi,
>
> Yes, I too came across one of these devices during a flight in
October 2015.
>
> Extremely annoying.
>
> Best wishes
>      Phil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of
goshawk on horseback
> Sent: 11 August 2016 10:29
> To: access-uk at freelists.org; BCAB Discussion List;
nfbuk at yahoogroups.com; vi-genaccess at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [BCAB] first inaccessible chip/pin machines now out there.
>
> hello all,
> well, last night when I was out, came across an inaccessible chip &
pin machine, really not good news!
> it was a touch screen version, had no buttons, and no speech, so
completely unusable for a blind person.
> as someone who virtually all of the time relies on being able to pay
by card whilst out places, I really hope these are not going to start
being the norm.
>
> Simon
>
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