[BCAB] [GRAYMAIL] Re: Costs of screen readers with modern day operating systems

Graham Page gpage at useit.plus.com
Wed Dec 13 09:02:17 GMT 2017


Fundamentally it's wrong that anyone should have to pay loads of money to gain access to stuff that a sighted person can access at no extra cost.  Achieving this goal of not having to pay extra will of course take time but it's still clearly the goal we should be aiming for.

Cheers

Graham

-----Original Message-----
From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Georgina Joyce
Sent: 12 December 2017 22:42
To: BCAB Discussion List <bcab at lists.bcab.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [BCAB] [GRAYMAIL] Re: Costs of screen readers with modern day operating systems

Hello John,

Everyone has to choose how they spend their money. We can’t expect a bottomless pit. I don’t have a clue how these benefits work for retired people.. Something I’ll have to research quite soon.

Yes there are other models that the state could offer us but this is how it is. They are just buying us off without much thought. But by having the money in our hands we can choose.

Gena

Georgina Joyce
Applied Psychologist
Training and Coaching.
Because individuals of groups matter!





> On 12 Dec 2017, at 21:31, John Farley <john_farley at btinternet.com> wrote:
> 
> What happens once one has retired and you want to keep an up-to-date screen reader in order to be able to use your PC fully?
> 
> The fully functional screen readers are very expensive under such conditions.
> I have other needs for the money I receive in my DLA payment such as my gardening, decorating, car costs etc..
> 
> Are we therefore economically restricted to the free screen readers? 
> That is currently a rhetorical question but will become real once my SMA numbers have completed.
> 
> 
> Regards, John
> 
> Tel: +44 (0) 1442 259243
> Mob: +44 (0) 7815 056076
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Derek 
> Hornby
> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:39 PM
> To: 'BCAB Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] [GRAYMAIL] Re: Costs of screen readers with modern 
> day operating systems
> 
> Would It be true to say that most screen screen readers are Funded by 
> Employers, access to work, and councils (social care funding) If yes, 
> then it seems to me that the price can be as high as the Market can 
> take. A bit like over priced drugs for the NHS
> 
> Derek
> 
> Derek
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of 
> Georgina Joyce
> Sent: 12 December 2017 07:37 PM
> To: BCAB Discussion List <bcab at lists.bcab.org.uk>
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] [GRAYMAIL] Re: Costs of screen readers with modern 
> day operating systems
> 
> Hello Steve,
> 
> Did you see the price of Supernova now? I was shocked to see it over  1000. I guess they reason that Supernova is 2 products in one. I used to be a beta tester for them some years ago. I don t think I can remember one keystroke now.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Gena
>  Why not? 
> 
> Michael Hinson 2011
> 
>> On 12 Dec 2017, at 15:44, Steve Nutt <Steve at comproom.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Gena,
>> 
>> Actually, Dolphin products are really quite good.  The only drawback for me, is they don't support any browser other than Internet Explorer, which is long in the tooth now.
>> 
>> When they support Chrome and/or Firefox, then I can start taking them more seriously.
>> 
>> All the best
>> 
>> Steve
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of 
>> Georgina Joyce
>> Sent: 12 December 2017 10:23
>> To: BCAB Discussion List <bcab at lists.bcab.org.uk>
>> Subject: Re: [BCAB] [GRAYMAIL] Re: Costs of screen readers with 
>> modern day operating systems
>> 
>> Hello Mr M Clark,
>> 
>> Please explain your logic. To say nobody wins with a monopoly? Firstly, there are Mac s and PC s so it s not quite an monopoly. If in this fictitious world wouldn t support be a lot easier. The demand for access be stronger as we would be singing from the same voice. Not like today where we are divided and he / she says I m all right Jack because I can afford Jaws the best screen reader in the world. It would be simple for those sightlings to understand the software we use  too.
>> 
>> It s hard but we need to look forward not back and protect ourselves by being familiar with as many as possible screen reader solutions. On this point I think it is sad that we haven t mentioned Dolphin products. Who probably still do employ blind VI people here in the UK.
>> 
>> As for those advocacy organisations, our screen reader of choice has been dictated by those men in clean cut suits. Stating that we need to learn Jaws, whether it s for student support or to support employment, in the past. But NVDA and Voice Over have empowered us and perhaps we ll speak more loudly and maintain choice appreciating that different folks have different strokes. There s also being empowered by the benefit system. PIP empowers us to purchase our screen reader of choice. I make a joke of going to University to get a computer and scanner but there s an element of truth in it. Had I had the benefit support I have now my desires would have been different. So we have benefit support that would enable us to keep Jaws going as a viable option. Of course, we need to find a way of using our benefit payments to force change in respect of the support issue. If I was a few years younger I would be skilling myself up as a screen reader voice and braille trainer.
>> 
>> The future is ours to shape, we just need to see / feel it.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Gena
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Gena
>> 
>>  Blindness is not a handicap, it is something I have always lived 
>> with. The real handicap is the prejudices people have about 
>> blindness. 
>> 
>> Michael Hinson 2011
>> 
>>> On 12 Dec 2017, at 09:14, Mr N CLARKE (priestley) <n.clarke at priestley.bham.sch.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> An interesting ethical point. Should an organisation like NFB (or RNIB perhaps?) tell one commercial company not to improve accessibility in their product because it would hurt another commercial company?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I appreciate the learning curve for a user switching vendors, but if it builds a monopoly surely nobody wins?
>>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Bcab <bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk> on behalf of Brian K. 
>>> Lingard <bkl at ncf.ca>
>>> Sent: 12 December 2017 01:49:28
>>> To: 'BCAB Discussion List'
>>> Subject: [GRAYMAIL] Re: [BCAB] Costs of screen readers with modern 
>>> day operating systems
>>> 
>>> Ottawa Canada
>>> 
>>> Dear List:
>>> 
>>> As I recall, the National Federation of the Blind, Baltimore, MSD 
>>> USA requested Microsoft to NOT attempt to make Narrator an advanced 
>>> screenreaders so as to not compete with Freedom Scientific and GW 
>>> Micro, the main players in the North American screenreaders market.
>>> NFB was of the opinion if Microsoft developed a screenreader bundled 
>>> with Windows few would buy Window Eyes or JAWS.
>>> Brian
>>> 
>>> From: BCAB [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf of 
>>> Mobeen Iqbal
>>> 
>>> Hi.
>>> It is worth mentioning they are now offering consulting and paid 
>>> support services according to a peace I read recently. I do not have 
>>> a link to hand but I am sure their online shop should provide a listing.
>>> Interesting times.
>>> Very best wishes,
>>> Mo.
>>> 
>>> On 11/12/2017 20:12, Ibrahim Gucukoglu wrote:
>>>> Hi
>>>> 
>>>> I have been following this debate with some interest :-)
>>> Microsoft was asked the question once, why did they not make 
>>> narrator a fully functional screen reader? The answer that they gave 
>>> was in short that they did not want to stifle competition and 
>>> innovation in their operating system. Remember that with Apple you 
>>> are dealing with a closed ecosystem and one screen reader take it or 
>>> leave it, we should be grateful and appreciate the wide range of 
>>> choices Windows access technology offers.
>>> There are certainly advantages to having access technology built-in 
>>> to our operating systems, however stifling innovation and 
>>> competition is not a productive pursuit and will - in the end only 
>>> harm the users and markets they are aiming to serve.  As for the 
>>> NVDA question, I would agree that the product is not fit for the 
>>> work environment and that is not because of the functionality but 
>>> rather the support mechanisms in place to serve you if you 
>>> experience issues.  Until NVDA can put in place a robust and 
>>> proactive support service, which they could possibly outsource to a 
>>> third party company then I would never recommend it as anything 
>>> other than a backup for more traditional screen reading options.
>>>> 
>>>> All the best, Ibrahim.
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>> On 11 Dec 2017, at 18:48, Georgina Joyce <gena at gena-j.me.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello Steve,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Andrew did state for home use.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As for the work environment for you as an established business
>>> you are able to keep things up-to-date. However, if I was to try 
>>> setting up a business I would have to look at my core activities for 
>>> expenditure and the supporting structures like an email client and 
>>> screen reader would be secondary. I could always use a different 
>>> email client and screen reader for communication purposes to my customers.
>>> So to say that NVDA is not suitable for work is not a fare statement 
>>> of truth for every situation.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Why would you invest so much in outlook, which really screws,
>>> with your mail format? It might appear that backing up mail with 
>>> just one .past file is easy but they easily are damaged. I lost a 
>>> good email archive from outlook and would never use it in in a 
>>> business situation. You chose to keep up to date on the bleeding 
>>> edge so you have to live with such issues. That is not NVDA' s fault.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gena
>>>>> 
>>>>> Georgina Joyce
>>>>> Applied Psychologist
>>>>> Training and Coaching.
>>>>> Because individuals of groups matter!
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 11 Dec 2017, at 18:13, Steve Nutt <steve at comproom.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Andrew,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But here is the thing, and what I have been discussing on the
>>> NVDA mailing list recently.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I do not think NVDA is fit for work purposes, and here is
>>> why.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I had some crashing going on in Outlook 2016 and JAWS.  Turns
>>> out this is caused by Office firing too many UIA events and the 
>>> screen readers get confused.  This can also be seen even now, in Narrator.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Go into Outlook in narrator or NVDA, then try to switch
>>> folders with Control-Y.  Bye, screen reader.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Now in the case of NVDA, I was told that if the crash was not
>>> reproducible in Narrator then NVDA devs would shift it to the 
>>> highest priority, but if it was, then it is in the queue to be 
>>> fixed.  It still is not fixed incidentally.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> However, Freedom Scientific put out a patch for JAWS 18, and
>>> then subsequently in JAWS 2018 that fixes these crash issues, by 
>>> hacking around the MS problem.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So long story short, if I had to rely on NVDA in my work,
>>> where I live in Outlook, there is no real support in place for it, 
>>> because it is free.  However, because I pay for JAWS, it gets fixed.
>>> This was also the case with Window-Eyes when it was around, that if 
>>> there were serious problems in Microsoft apps, they would generally 
>>> get fixed quickly by the paid-for screen reader vendors, but not so 
>>> quickly by NV Access.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So my view is still that when the rubber hits the road, NVDA
>>> is not really suitable for work purposes, but only for hobbyists.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Open Source and free is very nice, so long as the support
>>> systems are there in place to work out problems with commonly used 
>>> apps.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I know that in this case it is the fault of Microsoft that
>>> this bug exists, but if you pay for a screen reader, they tend to be 
>>> more proactive in fixing or hacking around such problems.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I do agree though that the model of selling commercial screen
>>> readers should change, perhaps to a subscription model, like Office 
>>> 365.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> All the best
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: BCAB [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf
>>> Of
>>>>>> Andrew Hodgson
>>>>>> Sent: 11 December 2017 17:56
>>>>>> To: BCAB Discussion List <bcab at lists.bcab.org.uk>
>>>>>> Subject: [BCAB] Costs of screen readers with modern day
>>> operating
>>>>>> Systems (was: windows 10 updates)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Georgina raises a point, which I have been looking at in the
>>> past few months.  Windows 10 Home pushes out large updates fairly 
>>> frequently (around 2 a year), and those may have issues with screen 
>>> readers.  We are also getting versions of Office delivered through 
>>> Office 365, which update frequently and cause issues.
>>> Look at the crashing Outlook, this was one issue, which the screen 
>>> reader manufacturers had to fix, and was caused by an Office 2016 
>>> update.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> JFW has supported Windows 10 I think from version 16, however
>>> there are several features I know that are broken in new Windows 
>>> updates, which were fixed in later versions of JFW, which were not 
>>> backported.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It is for this reason I advise people to switch to NVDA
>>> unless they can keep up the costs of running JFW.  That means every 
>>> other year paying the maintenance agreement.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In the future I think the completely pricing model of JFW
>>> especially for the home version needs to change.  I think the best 
>>> system would be a monthly or yearly subscription model whereby users 
>>> pay to receive the latest versions of JFW, and if they stop paying, 
>>> then the software deactivates.  This means we pay a lower amount for 
>>> the monthly subscription, which is easier to budget for, or pay the 
>>> yearly subscription if we want to do that.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As for the Pro version that is a different kettle of fish
>>> altogether, and is something we have discussed earlier on today on 
>>> this list.  As more and more software is being delivered in a 
>>> subscription manor though now, many companies are setting themselves 
>>> up to work with it.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Discuss.
>>>>>> Andrew.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: BCAB [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf
>>> Of
>>>>>> Georgina Joyce
>>>>>> Sent: 11 December 2017 17:24
>>>>>> To: BCAB Discussion List <bcab at lists.bcab.org.uk>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [BCAB] windows 10 updates
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Nice catch Steve, I did not know that because I have always
>>> had K1000
>>>>>> attached to a desktop and getting too old to reach around to
>>> unplug
>>>>>> Everything. <Grin>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But Derek raises an interesting point. Here on my Mac I get a
>>> request to install High Sierra but I refuse. While Microsoft Windows 
>>> now has taken that choice away from its users. This thread, as I 
>>> read it was referring to patch Tuesday updates etc.
>>> rather than the version upgrades. But they have become invisible to 
>>> us now either way. As mentioned by some this is going to change how 
>>> we buy screen reader products in the future. For example, when will 
>>> JFW
>>> 18 not support Windows 10? Vendors will need to sell us newer 
>>> versions. But with Apple giving free Operating Systems free of 
>>> charge Microsoft are changing their model. With Mac and Windows 
>>> having version 10 who is going to move on first or are desktops 
>>> going to fade away and we have IOS and Android i.e. mobile operating systems only?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What an exciting time of change!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Gena
>>>>>> "Why not?"
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Michael Hinson 2011
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 11 Dec 2017, at 15:08, Steve Nutt <steve at comproom.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi Derek,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If you open K1000 and you do not have your scanner
>>> connected, it would change the scanner source setting to none, 
>>> because it cannot find a scanner.  It would not put it back, so you 
>>> would have to go in and change it back manually.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So always make sure the scanner is connected before you open
>>> K1000.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> All the best
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: BCAB [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf
>>> Of
>>>>>>> Derek Hornby
>>>>>>> Sent: 11 December 2017 12:10
>>>>>>> To: 'BCAB Discussion List' <bcab at lists.bcab.org.uk>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [BCAB] windows 10 updates
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi Ed
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> A few weeks ago I had a scanner installed.
>>>>>>> Then few days later my scanner failed.
>>>>>>> I got message "scan failed"
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I arranged for remote help from Sight and Sound.
>>>>>>> They got my scanner working again.
>>>>>>> I was told a setting had changed.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So I am just wondering how a setting can change if nobody
>>> did that change!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If an update is an automatic update, can this sometimes
>>> Change a setting on the computer?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> When Jaws does an update I get a message so I am able to
>>> click a yes, or a no.
>>>>>>> But Windows does not seem to give me that option of choice!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Regards, Derek
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: BCAB [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf
>>> Of
>>>>>>> Edward Green
>>>>>>> Sent: 10 December 2017 09:29 PM
>>>>>>> To: BCAB Discussion List <bcab at lists.bcab.org.uk>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [BCAB] windows 10 updates
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi Derek,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There have been three major updates to Windows 10 as far as
>>> I recall: Anniversary Edition, Creator's Edition and the annoyingly 
>>> entitled Fall Creator's Edition.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In addition, there have been innumerable minor updates and
>>> patches.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I agree with Gena that it is better to apply updates to
>>> benefit from new features and guard against operating system 
>>> vulnerabilities.  However, reasons not to want to apply them 
>>> automatically might include stability - many corporate environments 
>>> will not apply updates automatically - and if an update were to 
>>> break accessibility.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ed
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 10 Dec 2017, at 19:27, Georgina Joyce
>>> <gena at gena-j.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hello Derek,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You cannot turn off updates furthermore, why would you?
>>> Microsoft do not develop updates for no reason. They believe it is 
>>> in the user's interest to keep their machine up-to-date. Of course, 
>>> you could turn off internet access, which will prevent updates until 
>>> you access the web again.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Gena
>>>>>>>> Braille is a reading and writing language that all blind
>>> people should learn to use.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Michael Higson 2011.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 10 Dec 2017, at 19:14, Derek Hornby
>>> <derek.hornby_uk at btopenworld.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hi All
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> How often does windows 10 do an update?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> How can I find out whether automatic updates is set?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> And lastly!
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> If I turn automatic updates off, can I update as and when
>>> I want to update.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> My sister believes there is no point doing the updates,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Is she correct?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Regards, Derek
>>>>>>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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