[BCAB] How expert do blind people have to be?

Graham Page gpage at useit.plus.com
Wed Dec 13 17:02:23 GMT 2017


Maybe you are right steve.  I've never seen though and I found the idea of a page of textg with different coloured text indicating links to be useful.  I know they are often underlined  as well.

The surfs up pages are also pretty good to get people going too so I'll generally use them.

Cheers

Graham

-----Original Message-----
From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 13 December 2017 15:23
To: 'BCAB Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [BCAB] How expert do blind people have to be?

Hi Gena,

I agree, and the enaligy that Graham uses is somewhat flawed in that if you have never seen, you don't really know what colours mean.

I tend to view a web site as a book, and the links as a table of contents.  That is how I describe it to very beginning users.  Heading and subheadings then become Chapter 1, Chapter 1.1 then 1.1.1, Headings 1 to 3, etc.

It seems to work for the customers I've trained, as far as I know.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Georgina Joyce
Sent: 12 December 2017 22:14
To: BCAB Discussion List <bcab at lists.bcab.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [BCAB] How expert do blind people have to be?

Hello Graham,

I hope you express your thoughts a little more gently than that. Can you see you are just crushing their baby steps before they can be brought around to your way of thinking?

Gena

“Blindness is not a handicap, it is something I have always lived with. The real handicap is the prejudices people have about blindness.”

Michael Hinson 2011

> On 12 Dec 2017, at 16:35, Graham Page <gpage at useit.plus.com> wrote:
> 
> Of course different people will have different aptitudes and people 
> have different areas of interest.  I have however taught people who 
> will only navigate a site by rote.  They want to know how many times 
> to press tab, how and when to press enter on a field, to input a user 
> name for example and when to do what in general.
> 
> I try to tell people that this is not a good way of working because if 
> a website changes then that method of working won't work.  They need 
> to understand the concept of a web page, the different kinds of 
> elements that might appear on a web page and how to navigate the page.  
> It's not that easy for some and maybe there is a different way of 
> explaining it.  I get people to start off imagining a sheet of paper 
> with writing on it, some of it has different colours and clicking on 
> this takes you to another web page on the same web site or somewhere else.  These highlighted words are hyperlinks.
> Of course later you can mention that some of the information on the 
> page is in fact editable by you.  On google there is a search box for example.
> 
> This approach does take a little mental agility however.  Some people 
> start off by assuming they will never really grasp the web and this is 
> a self fulfilling prophecy if it is really what someone thinks.
> 
> I don't think the concepts are actually that hard to grasp.  I can 
> clearly remember using the internet in 1990 as a student when Janet was the thing.
> The idea of having loads of information at my finger tips that I had 
> never been able to access was encouragement enough for me.  In East 
> London where I live I've met people in pubs who boast about the amount 
> of money they have made in gangs and the like without being able to 
> read and write so I guess it depends to some extent what floats your 
> boat.  I come across people who have lost sight in their 70-s who have 
> never used a computer even though they have been in the work place for 
> over 30 years  and the internet has been available widely for home use 
> for well over 15 years.  I must admit that I don't meet many people 
> who have never written letters and emails who take to it once they lose sight.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Graham
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Derek 
> Hornby
> Sent: 12 December 2017 14:58
> To: 'BCAB Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] How expert do blind people have to be?
> 
> David says
> 
> 
> "Of course, it's up to each individual how competent they want to be,"
> 
> But is it? 
> 
> One  doesn't chose one's  abilities, confidence level.
> 
> Derek
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces at lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of David 
> Taylor
> Sent: 12 December 2017 12:10 PM
> To: BCAB Discussion List <bcab at lists.bcab.org.uk>
> Subject: [BCAB] How expert do blind people have to be?
> 
> The recent discussion on Windows, screen readers and so on, has got me 
> thinking on this, and I think there are points we need to consider, 
> that we aren't. How we respond to them is up for debate.
> 
> 
> Firstly, there is the level of competition we want. If we want 
> competition in screen readers, browsers, whatever, then, by 
> definition, we get differences between them, some being better at some 
> things, others at different things, and the potential of anybody who 
> needs to do both sets of things having to know all the technologies 
> simply to be able to do all those things.
> 
> 
> At the other end of the spectrum, we could go for a one screen reader 
> that everyone works on, that can be made really good at everything.
> 
> 
> Whatever you go for, the fact of the matter is, blindness makes us 
> work in very different ways. Hearing and sight work in totally 
> different ways, and force that on us. With sight, you consciously 
> choose where to direct your attention, but you can scan very quickly. 
> With hearing, you don't have a choice, but you hear everything. 
> Therefore, screen readers have to try and mimic a sense that we just 
> don't have. They do a pretty good job of guessing where our focus 
> needs to be, but there's always that thing that we have to move in 
> much more granular ways than sighted people do, and it is therefore 
> inevitable that there will always be a lot more for us to learn.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry to say this, and I know I'm going to get criticised for it, 
> but, however hard we work on making things better, there are always 
> new things to deal with, and, quite frankly, new things to have to learn.
> This is always more true for blind people than sighted people, we have 
> to learn a new screen reader, operating system, piece of  software, 
> route to a new office or whatever, in a much more painstaking way than 
> sighted people.
> 
> 
> Of course, it's up to each individual how competent they want to be, 
> but the absolute fact is, blind people have to work harder to keep up, 
> in all areas of life. There is no point expecting or pretending that 
> this will ever be any different, it just needs to be accepted. If you 
> won't put in that extra effort, you are simply going to fail to be 
> able to keep up.
> 
> 
> In saying that, I am not saying we should give up on trying to make 
> things better, far from it, we should probably do more. However, we 
> will never get to a situation where people can stick with one screen 
> reader, not keep it up to date, and be able to keep up, it's just not 
> the way technology works
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
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